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The "Discovery" Transcript on Grand Master Olaf E. Simon |
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This is the only part of the full transcript IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH OF ALBERTA JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF EDMONTON NO. 9303 21120 BETWEEN; RICHARD SHERGOLD AND ARGOLD HOLDINGS LTD. Plaintiffs - and - OLAF SIMON, D. JUNE SIMON, VERITAS INTERNATIONAL PUBLISHING LTD., TEMPLE RUNG FU STUDIOS INTERNATIONAL LTD., SEAMAC CANADA INC., DERECK PIERCEY, DERCAL HOLDINGS LTD., MARK SMITH, AND BRIAN STOKOWSKI. Defendants EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY of OLAF EMIL SIMON @ 400 Oxford Tower, Edmonton, Alberta, on the 10th day of March, A.D. 1995. Edmonton, Alberta
Now, are you the husband of the previous witness who is also a defendant in this action D. June Simon? A Yes, I am, yes. Q Was she your wife also in 1988? A All along. Q How long have you been married? A You got me. 27 years I think. If it is 29 you wouldn't hold it against me? A President of Temple Kung Fu Studios International Ltd Q And you were in November of 1988? and maybe tell me who owned the company it helps me. Q I will do my best. A Okay. Q If I refer to or use the term Argold will you understand A It is Richard's. Q Pardon me? A It is Richard's. Q Yes, you will understand that I am referring to Argold Holdings Ltd.? A Okay. Q And that is okay with you? A Yes, sir. Q And if I refer to Temple Rung Fu Studios International Ltd. as TKI will you understand -- A Yes, I would, sure. Q That is all right with you? A Fine^ sir. Q If I refer to Dercal Holdings as Dercal you will understand who I am referring to as well, will you? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
A Yeah, I got to -- this is no -- let me think. The company of Dereck, right? Q That's right. And, sir, if I refer to those and you have any question because you can't remember which company is which please ask me. A They changed them around, yeah. Q Now, your date of birth is January 9, 1929, is that correct? A No, my date of birth is January 20, '29. Q January 20, 1929? A Yeah. Q Where were you born, sir? A In the -- on the -- east Prussia. Q In what is-now Germany? A No, it is Poland now. We lost that. It is gone. We lost the war. We lost all kinds of things. I would actually be a Polish citizen if I would be there. Q I have seen references to you in which you are referred to as Dr. Simon? A Yes. Q Do you have a medical degree? A No, I have studied in Gena University when I came back from war. After a while I spent time in prison, and Istudied in Gena and was given a doctorate in Gena in 1949. Q That was a doctorate in what area? A It was a literary achievement. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
Q And what was the name of the university, I'm sorry? A Gena. Q Can you spell it? A G-E-N-A. It is the same university where Karl Marx studied. Q Does that university still exist to your knowledge? A It was in East Germany. It should still be existing. It change hands after the -- Q Do you have a copy of your doctoral degree? A No, sir, no. Q You don't? A No. May I make some reference to this? Q Please go ahead. A At that time I was given the National Prize for Literature in 1949 and was awarded the degree and shared the prize with 20 other people. And I worked at that time in a student body in the underground against the Communist government, and there were some extraordinary activity going on, was some extraordinary activity going on. And I finally fled there. I had to go to West Berlin before this silly wall went up. Q Now, do you currently reside in Grand Forks in the Province of British Columbia? A Yes, sir. Q Do you have any residence in Alberta? A No, I used to live here. Q But not currently? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
A No, no, no present residence. Q Would I be correct if I suggested that your current occupation was that you were retired, would that be correct? A Fair, yeah. Q When did you first come to Canada? A Landed immigrant 1960, Quebec City. Q And did you come from Germany with a person by the name of Margie Hilbig? A Correct. Q And other than your native what is now Poland and in coming to Canada have you lived anywhere else in the world? A For a while I was all over the world. I was in Russia in a prison camp, and I escaped from prison camp and surrendered to the British. Firstly, I was in an American prison camp, was discharged home. When I crossed the border I was already properly discharged. The Russians kept me the second time. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, are you really interested in what happened in the 1940s? A Oh, I can tell him. Q MR. GROH: I was just wondering if you had lived anywhere else in the world. If the witness feels this is a proper way to answer -- A I was in a prison camp. I don't know, it was not living really. Q I understand your reference. What I am specifically interested in, sir,, is have you ever lived in China? A No, lived in China, no. I travelled. I was escaping not through China but through Mongolia. Q Now, I understand that prior to your coming to Canada in approximately 1960 that you had studied boxing in Germany, is that correct? A Well, you know. Q On an amateur level? A If you allow me to -- you phrase it -- studying is a -- I was very good at it, but I didn't have a master to study boxing with, no. I was an amateur boxer, yeah. Q Were you a practitioner or a student of the martial arts prior to coming to Canada? And let me clarify that. By martial arts I mean the oriental martial arts? A It wouldn't apply because there were no places to practice. This wasn't known. At that time there were none but Judo was there. The other arts were really not known. They were not, if I may use the word, they were not on the market. So that wouldn't apply. But I was well trained in especially Japanese hand-to-hand combat which is not the martial arts as we understand it today. Q But your training in Kung Fu came after 1960, did it? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
10 A No, before. Q Where did you receive that training? A And that was not training as we understand it today. Uncle Yen was a friend of our family. He taught us or me especially some of the moves. He made me a bow and arrow and helmet and this, so I got introduced in the rudiments of the Shaolin concepts. Q Was that when you were a small child? A Six years old, yeah. Q Did that continue for any length of time? A Well, yeah, for quite some time off and on. We lived in the diplomatic quarters in the Tier (phonetic) Garden, near the Tier Garden. And the Chinese embassy was not too far away so that. would -- I would think to the -- three or four years I would think from there on in but with interruptions, sir. I mean to me this was not a training but a play thing. Q And was that the extent of your exposure to oriental martial arts before you came to Canada? A Correct, yes. Q Now, you mentioned Uncle Yen. I was going to ask you if you could identify a person by the name of Master Yen. Was that the same? A Well, I think. Q Are we talking about the same person? A Well, it would be the same person. If you are talking about the -- I don't know where master comes from, but SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
11 I think all these people were masters without having them to qualify as being that. To me I think or to anyone you see an old person you would think he is one especially if they are Chinese. Q Did you ever train in the martial arts in China? A No. Q Did you ever attend the Shaolin monastery? A Attend the monastery? You can't attend it, sir. Q Have you ever been to it, sir? A To the monastery, no, no. Q I have heard -- A There is nothing left. It burnt down. Q I have heard references to people referred to as the Lee brothers. Does that ring a bell with you? A Lee brother. I know a Frank Lee, but I don't know a Lee brothers. There was an Edmonton person Frank Lee, and I helped this man to get on the international tournaments here. He had no access to the United States so I introduced him to the tournaments. And at one state in this era, the very end, I think '72, I owned the world's largest tournament in Long Beach. I was the owner of it. Q Did you and this Frank Lee did you study together or train together? A I think we exchanged knowledge, yes, but you know studying, there is a lot of envy in this field. So he was a very ambitious person, rather friendly guy, but SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
12 he stayed away from me quite a bit. He liked to hit, and I didn't like to take it, I didn't like getting hit. Q And I understand that. So you and Mr. Lee were not training partners on an ongoing basis? A No, you couldn't really say;, no, I think it wouldn't be a fair statement that. we were training partners. We exchanged knowledge, knowledge at lengthy time. Lengthy, maybe how many hours, maybe 100 hours or so all together in the whole lifetime maybe. Q Now, I understand that when you came to Canada you first came to the province of Quebec. Then you stayed there for about six months, and then moved to Toronto? A No, no, I landed there only. It was an affair of four hours. You had to leave the boat -- first the citizens left. The immigrants had to stay. And then the immigrants finally were allowed out for processing, and then back on the boat to Montreal the same day. Q So you went to Montreal, and did you stay in Montreal for about six months? A No, sir. I had $2 left I remember, and I had to go quickly to find a place to sleep. The last money I used was a plane ticket to Toronto. I had $14. I arrived at night and I had $2 left. Midnight I arrived. Q Did Ms. Hilbig also go to Toronto with you? A Yes, yes. SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
13 Q And did you and Ms. Hilbig stay in Toronto for about a year? A Pretty fair to say, yes. Q And then the two of you moved to Calgary? A Yes. Well;, we didn't move. We left in a car.. We drove by car. We had no moving or anything. Q And in Calgary a house was purchased,, and you stayed in part of the house, and she stayed in part of the house, correct? A Correct, yes. We bought a house eventually. We first rented. Q Now, in approximately 1961 is that when you first started to study oriental martial arts in earnest? A Well, this wouldn't be misleading. I worked privately and studied the art quite seriously because once a person knows sets or skills one can repeat them without any instruction. As a matter of fact if I may give you a valid concept, this young man if he is a master in his own right if he is a master and the master degree is that of a Fifth Degree, not higher, there are no higher masters after that. They are prestigious degrees. They have nothing to do with mastery any longer. He is master in his own right. And if he chooses to go on his own he could call himself rightfully master. He could change, add whatever he sees fit. That would be a fair assumption. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
14 So there was no instrument on the market which identified skills. The Chinese had no belt system. The Japanese had a belt system. We had a real problem in North America to adopt the Chinese art to a certain regiment. So the Chinese didn't give belts like 1, 2, 3; 4, 5. The Japanese were rather very orderly. So we tried to copy the Japanese as best as possible for obvious reasons. If they could produce a person with a Fourth Degree, welly Six is higher than Four, and One is higher than Three. So if Kung Fu -- a master by his own right is a master who can if he is challenged or-- somebody else challenges this person in the Chinese concept then he better be trained. He could call himself actually a master. It would decide whether or not he was -- could hold his own or not. Like in the old standards if he calls himself a master and salutes wrongly and he is attacked and he is knocked out he is not a master. He is a has-been,. That is a rather primitive system;, but in the modern day time we try to get away from that. And one had to actually make a name for himself I think if that would help you to get an idea of the cult you are dealing with. Q You have referred .to it as a cult. Are you talking about martial arts generally? A You know,, I am not raised in this language. Cult, you SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmontony Alberta
15 know, there are so many kooks. Cults as I see religious cults not. Since they have so many different styles, many different styles I myself loosely refer to it as a cult. They surround against a person. They identify with a certain person,, and they differ in their outlook and approach. They can differ quite significantly amongst one another by dress, by promotional standards or outlook. I guess this is about the best thing I can offhand come up with unless I have more time to think. Q When you use that term in your own context the term cult are you talking about martial arts as a whole the way it is practiced;, or are you talking about a style of martial arts? A No, but martial arts this is a collective thing. Firstly kung Fu is not a martial art. It is induced into the martial art and it is called one because they have slug outs. It is a philosophy of longevity, and we appear under martial arts because if we would be registered under philosophy surely we would deprive ourselves of the market if that would be a fair statement. Q Let me come at it in a different way. From what you have told me when you were a young child for about over a period of about three years with some breaks you learned some basics of Kung Fu from the person you referred to as Uncle Yen, correct? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
16 A Yes. Q And then you didn't do any more of that until you came to Canada and is it correct that in about 1961 you again started to practice Kung Fu? A Yes, May I give you -- I don't know. Q Let me just ask you one more question, if I might? MR. OSHRY; But, Mr. Groh, I believe he also said he was doing some stuff in between there as well if I understand, Q MR. GROH: I didn't understand that, but I will come back to that. What I am trying to get a handle on is this. Many years ago I lived in Calgary, and I remember seeing your ads, and at that time correct me if I am wrong it was advertised as Simon Karate? A Correct. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q And the reason I am interested in that is when you first started working again at Kung Fu or whatever you were working at in about 1961 in Calgary were you studying Karate at that. time or was it Kung Fu? A In the beginning it was Karate. Q And any particular style? A Actually I don't know how you say, you got to think here. I had a -- I started -- I started -- what I did was a concept which I started. But the reason mainly SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
17 why I used Karate was because Karate was known. kung Fu was a total unknown entity. So I went into Karate, and I was rather good at it, but compared to Kung Fu I most likely would have looked clumsy. Q Did in fact you and Margie Hilbig start to teach yourself Karate from a book? A There were no books out. We didn-'t have a book then. Q I understood that you studied Shotokan, and it was in the initial -- A No, I don't think ever Shotokan, no, no. I had a man who went to Winnipeg^ and there was a tournament, and he was saying that his Shotokan people were so good, and I went there,, and I worked with them, and they weren't good at all. Q Do you have any recollection of learning Karate or basic Kung Fu from a book with Margie Hilbig in the period around 1961? A No, I only know that I wrote a book, but I didn't learn out of a book. Q Did you -- A There were no books around. The recollection, there was a book from some silly man there. He was at the Bay,, and I think his name was Bruce Tegner (phonetic) if I am not mistaken, and that man had books on the market, but he had it on Aki Do. He had a smorgasbord on everything,. and I looked through that book, and it was really silly because this is a book which one SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
18 would use how not to teach -- actually how not to commit suicide. It was a silly book. Q You don't have any recollection of you and Margie Hilbig practicing and learning Karate or kung Fu from a book, correct? A NOy firstly Margie Hilbig didn't know anything. Q I just want to establish that you don't have any recollection of doing that? A No, noty sir. So you mean how do you learn? You put the book down and then you say<, lefs see and then you go and practice? What do you mean learning out of a book? Q That is essentially what I thought -- A No,, no, n0y sir,, no. Q Did you and Ms. Hilbig travel to Los Angeles to study under Ed Parker? A No. Q Did you ever study with Mr. Parker or train with him? A Mr. Parker was an associate of mine, and for some time we were partners in the Long Beach International Tournament. I didn't have to study under Parker. Mr. Parker awarded me an Eighth Degree Black Belt at the time as a courtesy simply due to the fact that I lectured in all of his classes for quite some time; and when I visited there I think sometimes three or four days in a row with about two or three hundred students there. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
19 Q When was that that Mr. Ed Park awarded you an Eighth Degree Black Belt? A That was mainly in the end. I think '71. I just can't -- but since I am under oath you are putting the gun to my head. Q What I would like to do is focus on the period back in the early 1960s? A Sir,, siry I went about from '63 on with every year to the States, and I have to explain to you. I owned clubs. My clubs were Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I owned that with about two or three hundred students. In '65 or 6 I owned the Chicago De Paul club with about 400 students. I also owned a club in Kansas Cityy Kansas. And I also had shares and ownership of 13 other clubs in and around LA and Bozeman,, Montana was one also. Q My understanding is that you opened your fist studio in 1961 in Calgary? A That is in Canada,, yes. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Grohy what is the relevance of the stuff going back to I960? MR. GROH; This witness's background. MR. OSHRY: You are entitled to ask some guestions. MR. GROH; I am going to come up to date. MR. OSHRY; I am not sure you are entitled to go into all this detail that you are going into. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton. Alberta
20 A May I help you. If it at all helps me I am a self- made man. I did not rely on any past training or anything. I had to go out and make a name for myself. I was at that time not a Canadian citizeno And there was a tournament in the United States I wanted to go to, and I couldn't enter the States. And Justice Schnorr (phonetic) who made me a Canadian citizen in private chambers, I went to him and said, Justice, so and soy I would like to go, but they wouldn't let in the States. He got me a they call it waiver or something from Ottawa flown by military jet to Penhold so I could enter the tournament in the United States which I won the Collegiate Tournament for Canada. Q MR. GROHs When was that? A Gee. Q Approximately? A '64 or '66. I am not too sure. Q Do I understand you correctly that while you opened your first Karate studio in Calgary in 1961 that you were involved in studios in the United States before that? A No, no, that came later, sir. Q That came later? A Yes, sir. About a year or so it began later I would think. Q When you first began to train students in your Calgary studio in approximately 1961 did you have a Black Belt SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton^ Alberta
21 at that time? A Yes. Q And who did you obtain that from? A Gee, the Black Belt I just tied around I think. Q Now, I understand that you opened a studio in Edmonton in 1964, is that correct? A Yeah. Q And had you by that time had you become involved in studios in the United States? A Yeah. It was '62? No, must be '63. Q 1964 was Edmonton opening I understand? A No, that is 50 or 40 years back, but somewhere in there I went to Philadelphia and entered a tournament,. and I got a Seventh Degree Black Belt from Shima Bokuru (phonetic), Q Do you know when that was? A '63 I think to the best of my memory, sir. Q And that was a Seventh Degree Black Belt? A Seventh Degree Black Belt. It is a Red Belt in Karate, not Rung Fu, nothing to do with Kung Fuo Q This was a Sixth Degree Black Belt in Karate? A Seventh. In Sibukan (phonetic) Karate, you can write the name down. House of Holy Alliance. Q And did you by 1964 have any interests in any studios in the United States? A We are all amateurs. You are looking at a business thing. Like what we did later was professional. No, SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
22 I lost my shirt there actually. They were amateurs. And I had no money. I had to travel there, and I made my money from the sale of uniforms. I also got travel money. But sometimes they had money. Other times they didn't have money. They would tell me -- they would send me money. In most cases it wasn't true. They themselves didn't have much money either really. Q You had told me earlier, and I am just trying to get a time frame here that you had the studios in -- a studio in Harrisburg in which there were several hundred students, a city in Chicago in which there were approximately -- A No, it was the university of Chicago, De Paul, a medical institute. Q And a studio in Kansas City? A Kansas City,, Kansas. Q And there was another one in Manitoba, and you said you had interest in 13 others? A No, I didn't have one in Manitoba, sir. Q I intended to say Montana if I didn't. A Okay, yes. Q What time frame are you talking about when you had these interests? A You really got me over the barrel because I would think five years or so. You mean from the beginning? Q I am trying to find the year. And that is why I was tying it into Calgary or Edmonton to see if that SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
23 helped you? A Well, you are looking at it in a clinical way. The martial arts do not really function -- basically if you talk about Tae Kwan Do, Karate, or Rung Fu it is a hat with different brims of a different shape but still it is a hat. They are all interrelated. Sometimes a Karate style is very little discernible or different very little from a Chinese style. They are all actually -- basically they are all Chinese styles which have been altered if that will help you. Q I understand that. What I am trying to find out is when you had these interests in the Harrisburg studio, the Chicago studio at the university, the Kansas City studio, and the other American studios? A Well, I still have a friend here. He is a medical doctor. He is down in Idaho. And I would think it was six -- I just don't know, sir. I got to find out if that is when I had them, I didn't have them -- of course I didn't in succession gave them to you, but I didn't have them right away all at the same time. So this evolved. Harrisburg was a place, a studio they wanted to belong to my group. So if I say this was my studio which I owned that would be false or misleading. These were people. They had a certain style, and they didn't like what they saw, and they saw me perform somewhere, and they wanted -- they threw all the other people out, and they wanted my SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
24 style or what I knew. They wanted to learn from me, And I think there was a Japanese teacher there they didn't like, and they just wanted to be taught by me because when I entered the Philadelphia Tournament I took the fourth place there. They were very interested, and they approached me as to that fact, and I said you want to belong to my that is the word association, okay. Q So you didn't own clubs or have an ownership interest in clubs in American cities, but. what was happening was your style was being taught in those clubs, is that correct? A Yeah, yeah, eventually, yes. This is true, but truly they were only after a performer who had by that time a rank or a name or made a name for themselves. I have seen many people in the Tournament they were Fourth and Fifth Degree, and they couldn't stand on one leg. They are useless people. Q So was your style of Karate then taught in these various clubs that you have mentioned in the United States? A Yeah, but you know -- yes, but I want you to appreciate it was not a pure style of Karate. I didn't like Karate. It was too jerky for my liking. It had no flow. And most of all I wanted to introduce Rung Fu because that was really what really suited myself and what I had a background in. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
25 Q Now, let us talk about your background in Rung Fu. As at 1961, 1964, that period of time -- A Yeah, well, my background in Rung Fu is right now about 60 some years. Q No, I am not talking about now. I am talking about back in the '60s? A In the '60s, 30 years less. Q My understanding was that by about 1961 you hadn't had any background in Rung Fu except for what you had learned from your Uncle Yen when you were a very young person and that -- A Well, sir, you can't really say any background. So if I volunteer information to you I mean it in honesty that I had off and on training. But you could have a man here training as an amateur let's say two hours a week. And you could train eight hours a day. It depends how many -- the years don't mean anything as how many hours a year does a person really practice. If a person says he practices like this man 15 years it doesn't mean anything. But if he practices two years and puts several thousand hours into that that means something. Q I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out information, A Okay, okay. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, really I am trying very hard to be patient. And I don't want to object, SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
and I don't want to interfere, but there is a limit to what you are entitled to in terms of his background. If you were giving evidence here I wouldn't be entitled to know how many math grades you got in Grade 1. MR. GROH; The relationship between Mr. Simon and Mr. Shergold was a relationship based on Kung Fu. And that is why I am exploring this and why I submit I am entitled to explore it. Mr. Shergold came into contact with Mr. Simon through the Temple Rung Fu studios, and I submit that is why I am entitled to do this. MR. OSHRYs Well, I am not going to let you ask any more questions about what happened in 1960 and 1970. I mean there is a limit to what you are entitled to, and these questions are not related to the relationship between the parties. MR. GROHs I submit they are, but we will have to argue that in the proper forum if that is what you want. When the Calgary studio was opened, the Calgary Karate studio in about 1961 did Ms. Hilbig teach at that studio? a. Well, I can't qualify that right on because she was a beginner there;, and eventually he -- he taught -- like everybody they start out as a beginner. I had -- I ran the class. I was the instructor there. And then she became I don't know how many years later three SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
27 years later she became an instructor I would think. Q I understand that after the Edmonton studio was opened in 1964 Ms. Hilbig travelled back and forth between Edmonton and Calgary and taught at the Edmonton studio? MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, that has got nothing whatsoever to do even with the matters you just mentioned a few minutes ago. MR, GROH; I submit it does, MR. OSHRYs Well, you can submit as long as you like,, but I am going to instruct the witness not to answer the question, I don't want to be obstruc- tivey but there is a limit to what you can ask. Why don't we deal with the issues? MR. GROH; In my view I am dealing with the issues. You may not appreciate the methodology that I am employing;, but I submit that I am. MR. OSHRY; How many times a week or a day one Margaret Hilbig travelled up and down from Edmonton to Calgary for the life of me has got nothing to do with this lawsuit. MR. GROHs I didn't ask anything like that. A She didn't,, sir. Q Okay, in 1968 did Ms. Hilbig move to Edmonton and teach at the Edmonton studio and manage the Edmonton studio? A She went -- you know, I assume that you have the SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
28 correct date. You have maybe better information than I have. Eventually she did. But prior to that she never did travel. There was no call for it. On occasion she would once come along, that is quite well possible, but not regularly. Q And Ms. Hilbig managed the Edmonton studio until approximately 1972, correct? A Well, manage is -- yeah. Q Yes? A I would think so. You call it managing, yes, yeah, running it. Q Do you recall in 1963 saying to Margie Hilbig something to the effect that since you wrote a lot of poetry if you put a Dr. in front of your name did she think anyone would check up on you? MR. OSHRY; Don't answer that question What you said in 1963 to Margaret Hilbig has got nothing to do with this lawsuit. Please don't answer the question. MR. GROH; I'm sorry, I submit it does. MR. OSHRYs Well, you can submit as much as you like, Mr. Groh. I am objecting to the question as being not relevant. A It is not true, sir. MR. GROH; Well, can I take that as an answer to that? MR. OSHRY; No. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
29 MR. GROH; Do I still have to make an application? MR, OSHRY: Yes. MR. GROHs All right. MR. OSHRY; Can we just go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Q MRo GROH; Now/ Mr. Simon,, you were involved in a company by the name of Veritas International,, correct? A The Edmonton.? Q Veritas is the one that you sold to Richard Shergold that operated two Edmonton studios? A There was one in Edmonton. I was involved in that, yes. Q Do you know if you were 50 percent shareholder in that company? A I don't know. We were involved in -- I think they are all the same. They are organized all the same way, aren't they? Q I am concerned about a company that operated the Temple Rung Fu studios in Edmonton before November of 1988, and I understand that to be Veritas. Does that sound correct to you? A It sounds correct,, but I can't really guarantee whether -- the date was? Q Before November of 1988. That is when all of the studios were sold to four people including Richard SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
30 Shergold. A It is very uncomplicated to me, but I just have a block, mental block. I don't understand something you are trying to tell. We sold -- there were a group of companies we sold, but I can't identify who or what, We sold all we had. Q I will come back to that later. Now, you were also involved in the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Mm, h' mm. Q Your answer is yes? A Yes, sir. Q And you are within that Temple referred to as His Holiness the Dalais Seng Shi? A Seng Shi. Q S-H-I? A Yes, sir. Q Is there a translation of that into English that you can give me? A Welly there is no word holiness in Chinese/ but the philosophy, the great ocean or something, the great white ocean or this sort of thing I would think, yeah. Q You set up or began the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple, is that correct? A Correct, yes, sir. Q Can you tell me what the words Neo Ch'an mean as adjectives of Buddhist Temple? A Well, Neo is Latin for new and Ch'an is Zen. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
31 Q Is this different than classical Buddhism? A Yes. Q Can you tell me quickly in what way? A Well, we believe in God, and the other previously there is no relationship to God, and the secondary is that it is a nondenominational is the word that a person can be a member of the Temple without severing the ties to his original whatever he has. It can remain intact or not, whatever they choose. Q Are there any other differences from classical Buddhism? A Yeah, well, we don't believe in Buddha Gautama for actually who coined the word Buddhism. We rather choose the word Buddhism as enlightenment, education, or knowledge. We don't celebrate actually the man because we believe that any man seeking enlightenment forfeits his family life. He deserts his family. And therefore I didn't see the wisdom or the purpose of how what you say setting example doing that. The original was built on that, on that individual. So we differ in that outlook. They also believe in the outlook of being very poor, and I can't understand that either. I believe from nothing comes nothing. The creativity of man, the more creative a person is the closer he is to God in my opinion. And this is -- these are totally my own thoughts which I have put in sort of a sequence and put it into a little booklet. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
32 Q And the booklet you are talking about? A Is the black one you have. Q I have a brown one. A I call it blacky sir. Q But let me show you our Document No. 1 which is a brown covered book? A Is it brown? Q Is that the one you are talking about? A Black, but it has nothing to do with the Nazi party. Q Is that the book you are talking? A Yeah, this is the one. I call it black. Q Why did you say it has nothing to do with the Nazi party? A Well, I hate -- anything brown I don't like. Q Also our Document No. 2 is that also a book that you have prepared in respect of the philosophy of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Yeah,. that is I would suggest a follow-up. If I can ask my wife? I think that is the follow-up on it, is it? MRS. SIMON; Yes. A Yeah. Q MR. GRQH; Now, are the points that you have just talked about as being the philosophy of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple, does that philosophy form the foundation for the code of ethics and the code of behavior for the Temple Rung Fu system? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
33 A I would say yes. But it still ties in in the certain examples the ancient Buddhists set. There is a wide variety, and you and I would get lost in the 23, 000 books the Buddhists wrote on ethics. There are 23,000 issues. The older intellectualisation bothered me because after a while it wasn't decipherable any longer, so I didn't want to have too much to do with that, Q My question was solely directed to whether the philosophy which you have told me about the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple is also the philosophy that underlies the code of ethics and the code of behavior of the Temple K-ung Fu system, is that correct? A I think that is quite important. For me it was important because I wanted to give the art a temple where it came from simply because there was such a disorganization out in the martial art. It was impossible to unite them. Anybody could call himself anything which was all right because at one time the old masters had no masters to promote them, but finally entering the civilized age of 2,000 years later it was still chaos out there. Q Is your answer yes? A Yes. Q Thank you. The title His Holiness the Dalais Seng Shi is that a title that has been conferred on you by someone? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
34 A Assumed title, how do you say, totally self-invented, sir. Q Thank you for your candor. A For certain reasons if you want me to go into that. Q If you feel that is germane to this please do. A Welly the Buddhist compared to the Christians and especially North America where I feel less privileged, and it was difficult for them to -- they didn't have the courage to actually match that image with let's say the Pope. The Pope, they call the Pope His Holiness, and nobody else -- the Dalai Lama finally I think they afford him the courtesy that you call him His Holiness. But the question is who is more holy, the man who has 800 million people or a man who has only 200 members, so I would then submit that the Pope is 800 million times more holy than I am. Q I'm sorry, I didn't understand that, sir. Could you run that by me again? A Well, if holiness depends on numbers, and if you talk to me and compare me to the religious leader the Pope my subscribed members are maybe 200, 300" And the Pope has 800 million. So he is 800 million times more holy than I am. Q Is that a philosophy you subscribe to? A Well, a comparison. Q A comparison with what? A To this concept of holiness which exists in the SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
35 general public. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, he is just trying to give you an explanation which you asked for why he thought the name was used. MR. GROH; I don't understand the explanation. A I can't help you very much there. Q What I understood you to tell me was that you assumed the name that included the phrase His Holiness and that you had a good reason for doing that. And you were going to tell me what that reason was, and what I have heard you to tell me is that if the Pope has 800 thousand followers he is more holy than someone who has 200 followers, so I don't understand the connection. A It is very simple. Psychologically I mean the Buddhists were not recognized in that sense in a Christian civilization because they would not call themselves holy over in China so the word holiness here then in order to give them the same value or respect or meaning that is why I introduced it because it seems to be unfair in my opinion. Q I see. Does it deal with credibility as a religious leader, is that what you are talking about? A Welly maybe that. You could say that, yes. Q So you are saying that is why you used it, is that correct? A I didn't use it. I had to establish protocol. If you SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
36 start a temple and you have a philosophy and you want to set an example you set an outline in order to do that so it can be done properly and follow it. Q And you do whatever you feel is necessary to gain the credibility that you think you need, is that a fair comment? A Welly I don't really know what you are saying now. But if you form anything you got to start having a system of concept by which people can relate to what you are doing. Q Now/ do all students or do any students who join Temple Kung Fu to study Kung Fu do they become members of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Welly sir, they can. Q It is a choice? A We., how would I say, we are not really successful in that we don't have campaign managers or people or missionaries or this sort of thing. And I wish we could have more time to organize ourselves better for the Temple. We were the last about eight years deprived of doing that. Q But I take it that some students do become members of the Temple, correct? A I would say, oh, yeah, a number of them, yes. Q Are students encouraged to become members of the Temple? A Not that I know. The philosophy is actually that we SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
37 do not allow missionaries for the simple reason I don't like the missionary concept because if I -- if somebody converts from one way -- from one religion to another if I do it -- if they do it themselves that is different, but if I do it then I see that a person by my input changes his religion and leaves one for the other which I dislike. I think the interference of my person is not really -- or any one person is -- should -- should be the motivating part. I am not against it, but I don't like -- somebody exchanges loyalties like this I don't like them to come to us and exchange loyalties. I like them to be rather connected to where they are. And in due time if they feel we are better then they can go -- I basically do not believe that we have a much better religion than anybody else. We are most likely the worst there is in my opinion. We have no such ambition to be better than anybody. We just want to be pure as best as we know how to do that. Q If you would look at your Document No. 4, please. What this is, sir, is this is an application for membership in the Neo Ch''an Buddhist Temple, and it appears to be an application by Richard Shergold. Maybe you can just take a moment and look at that. A I see his name on it. MR. OSHRYs It is just the one page. A Okay. Ever had a criminal record. I see no. That is SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
38 the only thing I see there. Q MR. GROHs Pardon me? A I see only have you ever had a criminal record^ and it says no. Q You don't see anything else on that page? A Welly his name on some application for membership in the Temple and obviously somewhere since he was in the upper echelon he made an approach or presentation to join which he couldn't do unless he would get this. Q And was this application by Richard Shergold accepted by the Temple? MR. OSHRYs Do you know? You can only give evidence about what you know. MR. GROHs He is the head of the Temple, MR. OSHRYs It doesn't matter if he is the head. I mean the Pope doesn't necessarily know every person who gets baptized. Q MR. GROHs In any event do you know whether in fact Mr. Shergold's application for membership in the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple was approved? A I would assume that to be an affirmative- I didn't do it myselfo I might have given the okay for them. I am quite sure he couldn't have got in there without my okay. Q In fact was Richard Shergold characterized by the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple as a lay priest? A Welly at one time, yes. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
39 Q What is a lay priest? A Yeah, yeah, well, he was not -- it is not quite totally accurate, sir, if I can qualify that. Q Okay, go ahead. A He was a very likable individual to me, and I took great how do you say -- a very likable individual. I took great care, how do you say care, like to know the man. And he had the qualification from what I saw to become a lay priest, and I talked to him about it. I said at one time I wish you would be able to help us out. We have very few people or so in that respect. But formally to have made him one we haven't which also would not exclude that I would have not very quickly made him one if I could just do so if he would oblige us. Q What does a lay priest do? A Well, sir, firstly I want you to understand that we were building a temple. You have a very different outlook in the commercial world what do they do. Everything is in place. We were building this, and we were trying to get a home -- we have no home for the Temple. We had -- whatever we wanted to do we had not even members there because they had to come there. When they came there they could light a candle. They could pray. I would spend time with them. But the idea is that since we call ourselves homeless brethren, that means members without a temple, they SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
40 might be anywhere,, so they mainly pray at home. And there is no interaction like in a Christian church where there is a sermon, and they sing and dance. It is not -- this is very different. They stay in their home and use words and pray on their owny light a candle, relax. And that is about the extent of it. Q So would a lay priest counsel other members of the Temple? A Well, my idea was that he should be able to help people whether they were of the Temple or not. And this would apply especially to students because he had contact to the students, and if they had trouble he could help them if they wished his help. But it was not to convert people or anything. We are not pushy people. Welly everybody wants to have members,, but not at any cost, or we didn't want to coerce anybody. We never did anyway, so I don't, know. I would assume that this case is built of turning me into a criminal. And if you succeed then I lost the case. Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. A I thought -- I think that this case is based on the fact if you can prove somewhere that I am -- to turn me a taxpaying honest Canadian to a criminal then your case would have merit. Q How does that relate to what a lay priest does? A Welly in general the whole line of question of my past when I was nobody when I came to Canada, and SNOW'S COURT REPORTING. Edmontony Alberta
41 apparently this is a free country, and you can start from the beginning,, and I didn't deceive anyone. I worked very hard from nothing to become somebody. I never conspired even then. Just trying to find my place amongst the other people who had all papers. I never had a paper. People do not give you papers even if you go through -- I had to make a name for myself the hard way, and I did that. Q Did you write a book entitled To Hell With Canada? A Yeah^ sure, but the question mark is very important. Q But you did author that book? A Yes, sir. Q Now, I am trying to find out simply what a lay priest does, and I understand you to be telling me and tell me if this is complete and correct, that what a lay priest does is basically help other people where he or she can? A It is sort of apprenticeship under myself^ in this case my wife, whoever was there to either learn to baptize people or to console or comfort people. We had the idea that we should have funds for people to help them out especially the brethren who were in the Pai Hu Shih, and usually that went over quite well. But there were never really enough funds, so we mainly send flowers. We watched for people who were sick. But not all the people either in the Pai Hu Shih are members of the Temple. There are very few members. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
42 And we have I think five, six, seven, five thousand students or so, and we may have about three hundred members I think. Q The members of the Temple did you talk to them and teach them your philosophy? A Well, this is why I travel. I caught -- last time I was travelling, and I was supposed to come for the discovery- I had already left, so it was difficult for me having found out to accommodate you. So when I didn't come I surely didn't, feel that I was ducking it. I just wasn't able, and then the events went otherwise, and I needed about -- Q Are you talking about the first time you didn't come to discovery? A Yes. Q Is that when Mr. Piercey and the rest of the people were examined? A I would think so. I am not too sure. Q You say the reason you couldn't come was because you had a commitment to go and teach? A I was already on the road when I got served. Q That is strange because Mr. Wolfman told me you were ill and presented a medical report to me. MRS. SIMONS No, no, just a minute. A No, no, sweetie, he doesn't. You got to tell him. MRS. SIMON: Yeah, but you get caught with the English and now you get confused. He is trying to SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
43 turn you into a liar because you don't understand the English. A I don't think so. MRS. SIMON; Well, he is. He just said that. MR. GROH; No, I am not, A No, no, sir., if that is the case I was sick. I had a drug reaction whenever that was. And I can't remember when it was, sir. Q My question is whether in fact you teach the members of the Temple the philosophy and the way that the Temple thinks they should live and that kind of thing? A Yes, sir, but I am going to be more specific and most likely put my big foot in it. I also teach people who are not in the Temple without that I say this is Temple philosophy. There is a lot of people coming to my seminars and mainly I think -- our followers are there of course. They like to be there., But I would do the same thing if you would be a student. You can listen to it and say, oh, my God, this is a bunch of bunk or whatever. Or you would say, well, the man has some -- makes a point there. You might ascribe to it or not. You know what I am saying? Q Yes. The seminars you are talking about, are they seminars that are given at the Temple Rung Fu studios? A Yeah. Q Are they referred to as meditation seminars or are they something else? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
A They are referred to as meditation seminars, but they involve quite a wide range of philosophy from Chinese to the integration of North America. I have a dislike for the fact that if a master is a non-Chinese that he is a lesser master. I don't like that. Q Nowy I asked you a moment ago whether when you first opened your schools they were called Simon Karate. I recall you saying they were? A Yes,, correct. Q And then did the name change to Simon Rung Fu and then to Temple Rung Fu? MR, OSHRYs Mr. Groh, I have already made my position clear with respect to what took place in the 1960s and the early 1970s. It has no relevance to this lawsuit. MR. GROHs Welly we are talking about the school now that in fact was the school that Richard Shergold attended. MR, OSHRY; You can ask him what took place at about the time but not 20 years ago or 30 years ago. A Sir, he was never in a Karate studio at all. Q MR. GROH; I appreciate that, but the names changed, didn't they? The same premises but the names changed? A But I don't know even if that is true, but it is true eventually the name changed. That is true. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
45 Q All I am trying to do is find out what the name change was. Did it change from Simon Karate to Simon Kung Fu and then to Temple Kung Fu? A Subsequently^ yes, but we are talking about an amateur period and one later on when we actually went professional because we couldn't afford the costly leases. We either had to close or we had to -- Q What do you mean amateur versus professional? A Well, at one time it was an amateur thing. But we used to charge I think $8 a month, and we couldn't afford teachers. I was doing it myself day and night. Q It was nonprofit in essence? A Well, we lost our shirty yes. Q And when did it turn into what you refer to as professional? A When we changed we began to change the names. Q To Temple Kung Fu? A To Temple Kung Fu, gee, I don't know whether or not -- there might have been another name change before that, siry but it wasn't one which lasted long. I had a tremendous amount of problems with the Japanese. I didn't get -- what is it -- I had trouble when I became a Chinese style. When I changed it to Chinese I had trouble with the Japanese. That is what I am trying to say. Q When you changed from the Japanese Karate to the Chinese Kung Fu -- SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
46 A Version, yeah. Q -- did you take any further training before you did that, or did you then develop your own system? A No, I built, sir, I built on what I had been taught privately when I was a child. There was a substantial amount of knowledge I had then. I had weapon, sword forms, and the basic forms on which the style is built. I was taught then. And when I had enough knowledge I decided to develop my own style as most masters living did. There is a whole -- about 50 or 60 world-renowned masters who founded their own style and became world-renowned masters by going away from either Chinese, Japanese, or Korean just synthesizing the styles and creating their own. Q And that is essentially what you did? A That is what I essentially did, yes, sir. Q Now, as at November of 1988 I understand that there were two studios in Edmonton, one in Calgary, two in Vancouver, and three in Seattle? A This must -- is as accurately -- I don't know offhand, but I am quite sure you have the facts. I would trust you there. Q Subject to your checking that is what you think is the case, correct? A I would think so, yes. Q Let's take a break. (Examination adjourned at 3;18 p.m.) SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
47 (Examination resumed at 3s30 p.m.) MR. OSHRYs Mrs. Simon has just asked me to explain that Mr. Simon was confused and may have had a difficulty with the English. There were two incidents with respect to the discoveries last year, and on the occasion that Mr. Wolfman told you that Dr. Simon was ill in fact he was. MR. GROHs Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Q MR. GROH; Mr. Simon, there has been some question raised about whether you understand me or not. If at any time -- A I don't want to lie, yeah. Q Just a minute. If at any time throughout this discovery if you have got any doubt or any hesitation about whether you understand me or not will you tell me? A Yeah. MR. OSHRYs Mr. Grohy in theory that is fine, but in principle it doesn't work because things like inflections and accents will -- accentuation of words will mean different things. MR. GROH; No, but if the witness doesn't understand the question that is what I am asking him to do is tell me he doesn't. MR. OSHRY; Well, he may think he under- stands if he doesn't understand. MR. GROH; Well, I can't help that. We COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
have that problem when everybody speaks English and everybody is highly educated because unfortunately people interpret what they hear, and nobody can do anything about that. I am trying to do the best I can here. MR. OSHRY; I understand. Q MR. GROH; Mr. Simon, we have come back from a break. Do you acknowledge that you are still under oath? A Yes, sir. Q I have also seen reference to you styled as Grand Master Simon. Is that a title that is particular to Kung Fu? A You know, I think this most likely could apply to anyone who has made a name for himself over maybe half a century. Q In the martial arts? A I don't know if there are masters somewhere else. In •music there are none I guess. Maybe there are. Q Your status as a Grand Master that is in Kung Fu, is it? A Yes. Q Now, was that a level that was awarded to you by someone, and if so who? A One claims that. One claims that. Now, in antiquity one would claim and the other master not liking that would come and either clean your clock or take over SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta
49 this -- they were a rather primitive people. As a matter of fact you will see that I was the first Grand Master in North America. After I called myself a Grand Master everybody was one or they became one. 50 I think there are a lot of hoodlums in this art and that there are a lot of very fine people in it. But the old masters are dying out. And even I, I mean I am close to 70 now. I am on the way out. But the Grand Master most likely comes from the relentless performance and the international reputation I acquired over 50 years being a part of -- as refereeing world championships. I refereed many. I refereed Bruce Lee's matches. Chuck Norris, I fought Chuck Norris, and Chuck Norris lost when I fought with him. I entered the Master Tournament in the United States and the masters approached me that I should not do so because they don't enter any longer. It was a conflict of interest. We should let the students make the name for themselves and not me. I was very much in need to get a reputation because really I was very much aware that I didn't have any paperwork. And the struggle here in North America, the Japanese were very much in opposition to Kung Fu people. And when they said Kung Fu is garbage it has no power I rented the university hall here in Edmonton and gave a three-hour performance. And I had about six tons of ice brought SNOW'S COURT REPORTING
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